Murderland: Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers
rbanffy
10 hours ago
58
62
https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/did-lead-poisoning-create-a-generation-of-serial-killers
zer00eyz8 hours ago
pyman8 hours ago
Pickleball was invented in Washington too. Probably another side effect of lead exposure and breathing in leaded gasoline fumes. Or at least, that's what tennis players like to believe :)
encom8 hours ago
Betteridge’s Law applies here.
fasteoencom8 hours ago
The law: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."
jama211encom8 hours ago
Very much so, and even though the article answers its own question with a no, they know many people will read the headline and only remember the link, and rumour will spread.

I can’t believe we’re _still_ allowing headlines like this in this day and age. I might even report it, because even though technically speaking the article content doesn’t spread misinformation, the title does.

gbinjama2117 hours ago
This made me chuckle have you seen the YouTube titles and thumbs?

It is getting SO outrageous that some creators shadow their own channels with the same videos but with normal titles saying they need the main channel with the stupid titles "for the algorithm".

This is the end of the race to the bottom to grab the scraps of our attention.

mrkramergbin7 hours ago
But what is alternative to titles and thumbnails?
neallindsaymrkramer7 hours ago
By following the work of authors that you trust and getting recommendations from people you trust, you can reduce your need for recommendations from machines and companies. Then you won't need to rely on clickbait images and headlines to decide if you want to read or watch something.

This requires effort, so it's not free, but I think it's a better way to engage with media.

mrkramerneallindsay6 hours ago
But that doesn't scale or it does, oldschool Facebook was like that before algorithmic feed took over. Enshittification is real.
jama211gbin2 hours ago
This is from the New Yorker - you’d expect media businesses to be held to higher standards than random YouTubers
Hilift8 hours ago
Tetraethyllead was introduced into gasoline in 1922, and lasted about 70 years. The effect would have been greater after WW2 due to there were more cars and a larger population with greater desire for mobility and closer proximity to cars.

During the Depression there were fewer cars for economic reasons, and during WW2 fewer for reasons of rationing and recycling, raw material went to the war effort.

xatttHilift7 hours ago
Lead may not have had as strong of an effect on adults as it did on developing brains. Post-war timelines fit for baby boomers, as they would be in young adulthood at the peak of these crimes.
zer00eyz8 hours ago
I can't remember the last time I went out of my way to look at who authored something because I disliked it on a visceral level.

The writing here goes from too much punctuation to grad students book review to quasi political rant. And the criticism might be valid but I simply can't get past the horrid delivery.

Prelapsarian... yay I learned a new word. It did not help with the delivery of the conclusion.

devmapzer00eyz7 hours ago
“Critics had long disdained the appetite for sanguinary entertainment as a symptom of decadence.”
naniszer00eyz7 hours ago
> too much punctuation

I thought you were joking. ... After a while, I started expecting a comma after each and every word.

Spooky238 hours ago
My vote: yes. Things like policing are reactive controls.

Crime has been dropping for a long time, and it isn’t because of increased professionalism and effectiveness of police or better governance.

nurettinSpooky236 hours ago
And definitely not because there is better access to education and basic resources.
mrkramer8 hours ago
Perhaps but I would argue that the most likely reason is genetics plus traumatic childhood. Manson had traumatic childhood; living on the streets, committing crime and spending half of his life in prison and in state institutions. When you add drugs and hippie flower power music scene to that you get Manson.

Bundy also had traumatic childhood not knowing who his real father is and believing his mother is his older sister while being raised by his grandparents. He was violent sex addict always craving for more and more. Imo his genetics played the key part in his deviant violent behavior.

emmelaichmrkramer7 hours ago
Parents may have been affected by lead as well.
Y_Ymrkramer7 hours ago
I'd be careful about associating a genetic cause with high-level behaviors. I don't have a good argument either way, but it seems to come close to a political third rail where you can ascribe patterns of behavior to genetically defined(-ish) groups like "race".
exe34Y_Y7 hours ago
I'm always suspicious of people who advocate this kind of caution - I can never trust if you are saying or withholding information in case it might lead to outcomes you don't like. Reality should take precedence. If X does Y, let's find out how to help X, not pretend X doesn't exist.
nkriscexe347 hours ago
Because it's rarely ever as simple as X causes Y, yet it will be taken out of context and concluded out of context that X in fact causes Y, thus we must round up everyone exhibiting X to prevent Y.
Y_Yexe346 hours ago
You may have misunderstood, I'm advocating caution on the basis that naive discussion of this kind of topic can attract attention from people who associate it with outcomes they don't like, and specifically you can end up being accused of having an ulterior motive

But maybe you underood that and think I'm arguing in bad faith. From your perspective, that may well appear to be the case, I don't think I can demonstrate otherwise.

mrkramerY_Y6 hours ago
It's not about race, it is about personality, even cats have different personalities which are shaped by their genes[0].

Evolution uses variation so you can adapt and survive but variation is experimental meaning its results are nor perfect nor conclusive.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20250626-how-loud-a-cat-meows-might-be-down-to-their-genes

This article was on HN frontpage 2 days ago.

dlisboamrkramer7 hours ago
I’ve watched movies on and read about countless serial killers. Almost always they came from horrible families, with abuse, neglect, different types of punishment. Also it seems there never is any type of psychological follow up of them as kids when they started to act “weird”. So most are just forgotten people who were never looked at mentally. At least I the 70s, I don’t know today.

I think there a couple cases where that’s not true but rare exceptions.

mrkramerdlisboa6 hours ago
For example John Wayne Gacy underwent psychiatric evaluation and "Two doctors concluded he had an antisocial personality disorder (the clinical term for sociopathy and/or psychopathy), was unlikely to benefit from treatment, and that his behavior pattern was likely to bring him into repeated conflict with society. The doctors concluded Gacy was mentally competent to stand trial[0]."

After that he was granted parole and released from prison and in the following years he murdered more than 30 young boys. So yea, the system failed us all. Although it is hard to evaluate and predict who will turn out to be maniac killer out of thousands and thousands of psychiatric cases health system deals with.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy#:~:text=Two%20doctors%20concluded,to%20stand%20trial.

dlisboamrkramer6 hours ago
Gacy is a good example of failure of the judicial system. He also came from a broken family and his father was violent and drunk. He was imprisoned but homosexual sex crimes weren’t taken seriously even against minors. This allowed him to leave prison with almost no time served. I wouldn’t blame the psychiatrists here.

We see that same pattern with Dahmer where the police literally released one of his victims into his custody and joked about the young teen being Dahmer’s “boyfriend”.

yieldcrv7 hours ago
I saw a court case where a mom testified against her adult child and said she drank while she was pregnant, resulting in undermining all of the child defendants decision making process resulting in the defendant’s conviction

To be honest this felt like one of those “too poor for appeal’s court” things

But a ridiculous way of treating a defendant

Imagine if we could tell someone had a mental alteration

graemepyieldcrv7 hours ago
> I saw a court case where a mom testified against her adult child and said she drank while she was pregnant

How could that even be relevant to a criminal case?

tgvgraemep7 hours ago
Because it affects the growth of the fetus, including development of the brain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_spectrum_disorder
perihelionstgv7 hours ago
To reemphasize the parent's question, how is that relevant to the prosecution of a criminal trial? "The defendant is mentally ill / has a propensity to commit crimes" isn't admissible, in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_evidence#Criminal_trial

bluGillperihelions7 hours ago
mentally ill is a plea and changes how the case is handled. if found guilty you go to a very different prison system where real doctors care for your issuse and then releas you when treated. It isn't easy to get this plea - many try thinking it is a fast track out of prison so the courts are onto that and put a lot of effort into checking if you really are. I doubt mom's testimony has much weight in that, though she would still be allowed to testify and that would be in the record maving it apear that it mattered
tgvperihelions2 hours ago
Isn't this called "diminished responsbility" in the US system? There's apparently also something called "settled insanity." If you want to plead one of those, you have to provide a reason.
graemeptgv6 hours ago
Someone having drunk while pregnant is not strong evidence that it had a meaningful impact. You have to drink heavily to even risk it, and to have an impact on a court case why not get medical evidence on whether or not meaningful damage has occurred.
burnt-resistoryieldcrvan hour ago
Lead "Twinkie" defense.
vinnski7 hours ago
The headline reminds me of the (debunked) theory that ergot-contaminated grain was what incited the Salem witch trials - which was just as ridiculous

https://salemwitchmuseum.com/2023/05/17/debunking-the-moldy-bread-theory/

lvl1557 hours ago
I think it’s safe to say the boomers were exposed to lead the most out of anyone especially if they grew up in heavy traffic areas. That said, that’s no excuse since the Romans were probably exposed at a significantly higher rate and they churned out some ingenious projects. Or was lead introduced to Rome toward tail end?
PeterStuer7 hours ago
In Europe lead was used just as much in pipes and exhaust. We also have countries with broad gun availability.

We do not have the serial killers of the US level by far.

I think culture is key.

ltbarcly3PeterStuer7 hours ago
This is not accurate at all even as an apples to apples claim. US media amplifies them and you consume a lot of US media. Besides confounding factors, you have had a ton of fascist and communist governments which were filled to the gills with serial killers and frankly mass murderers, all the way up to the 2000s. They just had a legal outlet to act within. The % of europeans who have killed more than 10 civilians must be 1000x the US average over the last 100 years.
martin_altbarcly37 hours ago
> The % of europeans who have killed more than 10 civilians must be 1000x the US average over the last 100 years.

WTF did I just read?

Anyways, maybe have a look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2024

SideburnsOfDoommartin_a7 hours ago
I think that the parent is also including soldiers in times of war in Europe in the 20th century.

It's still utter WTFery, but not on the basis of comparing mass shootings by civilians.

hackyhackyltbarcly37 hours ago
First, what you're describing is not consistent with the definition of serial killer [1].

Second, even if we include governmental killings, it's not clear how to allocate blame. For example, how many people are responsible for the Holodomor [2]? Just Joseph Stalin himself? His deputies? Every employee of the Russian government? If we consider each instance of state-sanctioned murder as ultimately being ordered by the head of state, that would not greatly increase the number of murderers, and certainly not in comparison to the daily count of civilian-on-civilian murder in the US.

Third, if we are going to include governmental killings, we should definitely include the various illegal wars that the US has engaged in, and continues to engage in. I think that would nicely balance the tables. It's important to understand that fascism and Communism do not hold a monopoly on civilian deaths [3] [4] [5]. Let's also not forget the US's continued use of the death penalty.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal

EDIT: formatting

ltbarcly3hackyhacky5 hours ago
I agree, except you don't understand my point. Europe has just a TON of sanctioned sadomasochistic sex-related murder crimes. Just a ton. Before Jews were stuffed into ovens many were forced to perform sex acts on their guards. So many that it was formally organized and done in the open. Exactly the sort of thing that a serial killer does. So if you're a serial killer in Germany, or Russia, or Eastern Europe, or Yugoslavia you just get a job with the secret police, and engage in your sadomasochistic rape and murder without worrying about the police finding out because you are the police. If you are a serial killer in Western Europe you might have to go to Algeria or Vietnam if you are French, or India or Africa if you are British, etc etc, plenty of places where serial killer behavior would just be ignored or encouraged. You can't even find statistics on how often this happened because nobody cared enough to keep records of it because human life was so cheap it's not worth the paper.
SideburnsOfDoomltbarcly34 hours ago
Citation needed that this is a "Europe" issue only, so as not to have a double standard.

Look at current news from the USA law enforcement if you still think that.

ltbarcly3SideburnsOfDoom2 hours ago
Are you saying that thr industrialized rape and murder of millions of people is morally equivalent to deporting people? Inside your head, is it just a limp piece of cabbage?
PeterStuerltbarcly36 hours ago
You mean the only country that has 800+ military bases around the world, and has started a never ending series of 'regime change' wars and proxy wars, is the only country to have used nukes, that has a military larger than the rest of the planet combined, and an extreme domestic mass shooting problem seen nowhere else, somehow still managed to have 1000x less 10+ kills than Europe?
firesteelrainPeterStuer6 hours ago
The conversation was about serial killers and individual level violence, not military actions or geopolitical power.
PeterStuerfiresteelrain6 hours ago
The parent for this response was specifically about state sactioned, military or otherwise, killings.
firesteelrainPeterStuer6 hours ago
Slightly. I think you are misreading the parent. Parent is saying that serial killers had a legal outlet to operate in. Then, you went a completely different direction with military level operations which parent isn’t talking about. Parent is arguing that in those communist or facist governments that they basically had state sanctioned serial killers and psychopaths
SideburnsOfDoomfiresteelrain3 hours ago
Parent is saying that serial killers and psychopaths had a legal outlet to operate in, but only In Europe uniquely

Which is quite a thing to claim. It's nuts.

ltbarcly3SideburnsOfDoom2 hours ago
Europe is quite unique in the scale of mass murder and secret police killings. Besides China, Europe dominates the statistics by two orders of magnitude.
firesteelrainltbarcly3an hour ago
Sideburns is arguing that it’s not just Europe. Not sure how far we take this back. Do we go back to the Huns?

Anyways what we are all talking about is like a Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. Not Nazi’s

ltbarcly3PeterStuer5 hours ago
Europe's high self image is based on a shell game.

Step 1: Commit horrific atrocities. Step 2: Declare that you are now a new country (with the same people), so you stop counting the atrocities against yourself.

See how it works? Germany tried to genocide half the population of Earth, the US stops them and builds a bunch of bases in Germany so they don't try that again, and now that is evidence of US abuse and aggression. It's not THAT Germany anymore, the one that did the crimes and has to be occupied to make sure they don't try to stuff every brown child on earth into a brick oven, it's Germany, the great country that is totally innocent. It's not the GB that kept half of the world's population under it's thumb to brutally extract resources and become rich, it's GB the cute country with the Queen. All the crimes have to be ignored and don't count anymore because you have free healthcare (or something).

Anyway, you completely miss the point. When the Gestapo was stuffing people into ovens, they were also running Joy Divisions. Guess what kind of guys were signing up to run these bases? In a real civilization these are the kinds of guys who show up in police statistics as serial killers.

SideburnsOfDoomPeterStuer7 hours ago
This isn't a really counter-argument.

It could be (and IMHO likely is) multi-causal, with several contributing factors, including lack of social welfare (leading to people with rough childhoods), gun availability and also lead exposure in childhood.

The question at hand is how to weight the last factor. IMHO it's not zero, but I don't know enough to say just how much.

firesteelrainSideburnsOfDoom6 hours ago
You are right it is multi casual.

The hard part is untangling how much each factor contributes.

hackyhackyPeterStuer6 hours ago
firesteelrainhackyhacky6 hours ago
Not everyone agrees that lead did cause a drop in violence. It’s one theory
hackyhackyfiresteelrain6 hours ago
> Not everyone agrees that lead did cause a drop in violence. It’s one theory

Obviously. That's what we're discussing. I am simply presenting evidence to contradict the GP comment, which claims (falsely) that Europe did not see a drop in crime similar to the US's. The fact that Europe did see a drop a crime is not conclusive evidence of the lead-crime theory, but it leaves that possibility open.

If you have another theory, you are welcome to share it.

firesteelrainhackyhacky6 hours ago
Not completely ruling lead out.

The decline in crime across both the US and Europe does align with the phaseout of lead.

Other things were happening at the same time such as changes in policing, incarceration, economic conditions, and access to mental health care.

It is hard to know how much each carries in weight.

andrewinardeer6 hours ago
Wasn't a substantial amount of lead used to solder tinned food for like 150 years? That's like two generations where lead leeched into foods. Was there a bump in serial killers from 1810's onward?
fhoandrewinardeer5 hours ago
150 years is more like 5-7 generations.
DFHippie5 minutes ago
I think Kevin Drum (R.I.P.) covered this better than the author of this piece.

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure-gasoline-crime-increase-children-health/

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/

And, addressing the meta-analysis the New Yorker author places so much weight on:

https://jabberwocking.com/yet-another-look-at-that-lead-crime-meta-study/

The clincher is that competing hypotheses are almost exclusively concerned with phenomena in the U.S. and fall apart as explanations for the same cresting and subsidence of the crime wave in other countries, or even simply in other cities in the U.S. One city does broken-windows policing. Another doesn't. Both experience the same decline in the murder rate.