Kinrany
12 hours ago
0
11
You can of course create wealth in such a way that inequality stays the same. Not all types of wealth are finite for practical purposes.
psb21712 hours ago
But, if empirically our current system for net wealth creation tends to also produce wealth concentration, it makes sense to consider ways of modifying the system to mitigate some of the wealth concentration while maintaining as much of the wealth creation as possible.
erupsb21712 hours ago
The target you should look for is how much wealth gets created for the least well-off (or for some low percentile representative person). Just don't worry about what the rich people doing at all. No need to punish them.
voidhorseeru11 hours ago
Where is the "wealth created for the least well off" going to come from?

Necessarily, that must be wealth that did' go to the rich instead (it could have!). So, necessarily, you are "punishing" them by doing so.

You mainly seem to be against some kind of hypothetical robinhoodesque style redistribution because you worry it's unfair to the rich. Any solution, though, will have to take this shape, whether it targets the existing wealth or wealth generated going forward. It's all about redistribution of access no matter how you slice

You don't need to be so protective of the rich. They are doing just fine and they have plenty of resource and mechanisms in place to protect themselves. If the world's wealthiest people were made even just a tiny bit less wealth by redistribution of assets they would still be living like absolute kings.

eruvoidhorse10 hours ago
> Where is the "wealth created for the least well off" going to come from?

Well, mostly where everyone's wealth is coming from: from the fruits of their own labour.

> You mainly seem to be against some kind of hypothetical robinhoodesque style redistribution because you worry it's unfair to the rich.

No, I haven't started worrying about fairness, yet. No, I'm afraid that a tax system designed by what sounds good instead of what works will leave the poor even worse off.

Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence for an example: who you officially levy the taxes on isn't necessarily the person shouldering the economic burden.

johnecheckeru9 hours ago
Only tiny fraction of a billionaire's wealth tends to be the fruit of their personal labor. It's the labor of their employees and machines that create the wealth. To my understanding, this is broadly accepted.

Now, billionaires do supply a different key ingredient to the wealth creation - risk. Without investment and risk, wealth cannot be created. In terms of $ investment, billionaires take on the vast majority of the risk and deserve the bulk of the rewards, the argument goes. Workers take on far less risk with their guaranteed* paycheck .

But which is the bigger risk? A billionaire's $100,000,000? Or your home, your health, and your retirement savings were you to lose your job in a bad market?

I'm interested in company structures that incentivize distributing risk, profit, and power across a larger group than we tend to see in modern companies.

erujohnecheck8 hours ago
> I'm interested in company structures that incentivize distributing risk, profit, and power across a larger group than we tend to see in modern companies.

Please feel free to start your own company or cooperative.

johnecheckeru4 hours ago
Working on it ;)
danansjohnecheck6 hours ago
> But which is the bigger risk? A billionaire's $100,000,000? Or your home, your health, and your retirement savings were you to lose your job in a bad market?

This parallels the diminishing marginal utility of wealth, which states that with extreme wealth, you can't buy any more to get more utility or happiness.

In a way, the risk phenomenon picks up where that phenomenon leaves off, where the need for normal "utility" gives way to the desire for amassing power over society at large.

The mistake they make is not realizing how much of their wealth and welfare relies on the welfare of the masses.

> I'm interested in company structures that incentivize distributing risk, profit, and power across a larger group than we tend to see in modern companies.

Ironically this is a tiny bit of what we saw with employee stock options in the early days of the internet industry, reflected in the historically outsized power and voice of workers. Arguably, that is a part of the rationale behind the big tech layoffs - to put labor back in its place.

andrepderu10 hours ago
You clearly believe you're very objective and applying very "rational" thinking to the problem. It's about the dollar value of the income of the least well-off, so what are these stupid people even talking about inequality? Don't they realise making a poor person 10% worse off and Bezos 11% worse off reduces inequality but lowers the floor (the pedestrian argument you've made several times in this thread)?

But please consider that the problem is slightly (i.e. a lot) more complicated than you think. Economics is a very very hard discipline and perhaps more closely related to philosophy than the natural sciences. There have been countless books written on the topic of inequality by people smarter than you or me, so it's highly it's all so simple as your dismissive "just do X" line imagines it to be.

A simple, almost trivial observation: very high inequality of wealth also means very high inequality of power, meaning the rich elite can and will influence the political process to enrich themselves further at the expense of the "low percentile" less well-off, which will be denied political power. This is one example of why you should care about inequality.

eruandrepd8 hours ago
> But please consider that the problem is slightly (i.e. a lot) more complicated than you think. Economics is a very very hard discipline [...]

Yes, and that's why I am saying that it's far from an obvious conclusion that making rich people worse off is a good thing for poor people.

And once you admit that this ain't trivial, you can look at topics like deadweight losses or tax incidence.

Different tax and redistribution system have different effects. It's not just 'more tax = more revenue to redistribute'.

For example, I actually think you can drive overall tax rates (eg as percentage of GDP) a lot higher than they are today in most countries without harming the economy, _if_ you switch to something as efficient as land value taxes for the vast majority of your government revenue (and lower other taxes). Property taxes are a second best approximation.

In contrast, capital gains taxes and income taxes are less efficient. Tariffs are even worse (by a large margin!), even if they could theoretically raise some revenue. Stamp duties or other taxes on transactions are also pretty bad. And silly things like price controls just hurt the economy without raising any revenue at all.

But that's all vastly simplified. As you suggest, there's lots of theory and practice you can investigate for the actual effects. They might also differ in different times and places.

> There have been countless books written on the topic of inequality by people smarter than you or me, so it's highly it's all so simple as your dismissive "just do X" line imagines it to be.

That's why I'm saying exactly the opposite: I'm arguing against the naive 'just tax the rich'.

RivieraKidandrepd4 hours ago
It seems pretty straightforward to me.

Wealth redistribution has this positive effect: If you take $1000 from a billionaire and give it to a very poor person, total happiness increases.

It also has a negative effect, high level of redistribution can inhibit production.

The optimal level of redistribution depends on what you're optimizing, it's usually a mix of societal happiness and some notion of fairness. (I personally would want to optimize happiness and prosperity.)