It's worth checking out.
I also find the place way too judgemental. The community loves to hate on anyone that doesn't share their aesthetic.
I definitively am (my capsule is gemini://idiomdrottning.org and I write about all three of those things) but I often feel kind of alone with that perspective. There's a lot of "let's go Branden" type curmudgeonliness which I'm not into, or weird Time Cube type stuff. I only know of a handful of other leftist capsules (love them ♥).
Also, While the merits of left-wing policies and of punk aesthetics can certainly be called into question, criticizing "ecological" is like saying "and the posters on there are subject to gravity! They fall downwards, and they have the gall to live their lives going forwards in time!" We all live on the same Earth and wrecking it affects all of us.
> Maybe if you don't have many leftist friends you'll find it more novel, but I found it full of the same talking points and little else.
It's not my intention to re-harp on the same points already made a thousand times but to instead afford a new way of thinking about systems and markets. I try to update older posts rather than make new ones about the same thing.
> I also find the place way too judgemental. The community loves to hate on anyone that doesn't share their aesthetic.
Here, I can only agree, and I'm often guilty of this, too. I see how people wanna warp or distort the aesthetic (for example, produce spec-breaking sites or accessibility obstacles) but as I try to clarify it I end up inadvertently slamming those who aren't into the whole minimalism brain trip and that's a real problem.
:( That's unfortunate. I find the leftist stuff a bit repetitive, but certainly more aware than that sort of curmudgeonliness. I guess it's a natural consequence of the growing population of Gemini huh.
> criticizing "ecological" is like saying "and the posters on there are subject to gravity! They fall downwards, and they have the gall to live their lives going forwards in time!" We all live on the same Earth and wrecking it affects all of us
Oh I'm not criticizing the ideology at all. Ecology drives a lot of my personal politics as well. And specifically by "ecological" I mean "ecological punk" (messed up with the comma in my original post) here which I'm referring to as a low-tech/minimalist approach to ecological sustainability. I just find it overrepresented and a bit repetitive on Gemini. I can find myself nodding and agreeing, but few of the posts challenge me to think and grow the way talking with individuals with very different ideas of ecology (say more maximalist approaches) would. At the end of the day, for me, living ecologically sustainably is the goal, not _how_ we get there.
The author of the protocol didn't want to add forms etc, as that adds complexity; but as a result, there is no way to write things. There are no discussions or a way to create "pods" without going back to some other protocol.
I think as a result, most content of Gemini is talking about how Gemini is great and nothing much else.
A transaction looks like an email conversation, with server response containing enough metadata to generate a new request to some endpoint that can process it.
The next request to the Gemini page will need to have some GUID to locate the conversation and obtain the latest version.
This sounds like something that might not be too insane over a VPN, where one owns the whole conversation.
Otherwise, it could be fraught with peril.
This doesn't have to reproduce the entire suite of features that a modern web application offers.
I get Gemini as a way to form a clique of like minded people who know of it but I don't get Gemini as enabling anything that couldn't or wasn't already being done before.
The first step is realizing that it was deliberately designed to be inextensible. Anything that can be extended will accrue bloat.
The second step is to realize that it's really just plain text. Once you realize that, the choices about what kinds of formatting make total sense:
* bulleted lists, but not hierarchical
* links but they have to be in a paragraph of their own
* preformatted blocks but no italics
* linewrapping but no collapsing of multiple sequential linebreaks
* headings but no boldface
* blockquote with > just like email (*are you listening, @dang?*)
They're the kinds of formatting that impose zero burden on somebody reading through a terminal. In fact, linewrapping is really the only thing you need to do to gemtext to make it readable (versus just "cat foo.gemini"). Rich clients like Lagrange then take this limited set and render it as beautifully as possible on something much more powerful than a VT100.In a way, this is just an extension of the "first step". If you start allowing rich markup, where do you stop? Not allowing anything that would make the markup itself any less readable provides a natural point at which to halt extensibility, for principled reasons.
I recently discovered that Lagrange will treat a link to an image as a lazily-loaded inline image -- you have to click the link to make the image appear, but it appears inline where the link had been instead of replacing the page that linked to it. I think this is a really beautiful way to enhance the experience for people reading through a GUI without tempting authors to do anything that would burden people who are reading through a terminal.
The only big wart on the whole thing is TLS. It's cute that it solves the TCP truncation problem, but that's a lot of bloat to pay in return. I guess there isn't yet something at Layer 4 that is as minimal, elegant, and battle-tested as wireguard (Layer 3) to take the place of TLS though.
Interesting. From a modern Web POV a lot of these are backwards, but if you look at it from terminal and other usage it is quite refreshing.
* Inline links everywhere tempting you to click away to a new page, both fracturing your attention as well as being a multiple-second delay between pages
* Images are everywhere, needing to be interpreted by the rendering engine of the ereader either with a simple monochromatic threshold to figure out what parts of the fully color image are black and white, or if you're lucky it has some way to re-process the image through dithering so that it's possible to see what it is
* web layouts always wanting you to have a screen larger than an ereader can support, so you're stuck scrolling back and forth on a tiny screen that already has a miserable refresh rate of once or twice a second.
* the web is an application platform now, the vast majority of its features just not fitting within what an ereader can support
You're all correct, you can easily implement what Gemini does if you make one website that is only text. In fact, you can probably do it better since you don't have to be constrained to gemtext, or constrained to its handful of weekend-project servers for hosting the site, all of which have their own issues.But the thing that keeps drawing me back to is is that while you can easily implement Gemini with HTML and HTTP, it is impossible to implement HTML and HTTP in Gemini. The fact that you can't implement a webapp in Gemini means that if you're browsing pages in Gemini, you get a consistent experience and every site is clean and respectful of the experience (whether the author wanted to respect it or not, they have no choice).
Perhaps the real counter-argument to Gemini is not "why don't website authors just make their websites simpler?" but instead "why don't modern browsers run in 'reader mode' by default?".
For all the explanation of what Gemini does and why HTML+HTTP in a browser don't this response does very little to actually answer the question: "Aren't e-readers perfectly able to display e.g. MD over HTTP on existing clients instead of gemtext over Gemini on a one off client?"
Can anyone recommend a good de facto homepage as a jumping off point for exploring what's out there on Gemini today? There are a few decent directory sites but in particular it would be nice to find a page with links to new or updated sites.
=> gemini://warmedal.se/~antenna/
Note: anyone can submit an RSS/Atom feed to Antenna, but submissions from Techrights.org and Kiwi Farms are blocked by default.
For example: a combination Gemini/IRC client would be pretty neat. Gemini documents can include IRC discussion links and open right up in the same client.
A lot of the early HTTP-based web was read-only - I mean how many Geocities pages were there in the mid-90's with nothing more interactive than emails and maybe little things like a guest book or whatever.
How many of those lines of code are dedicated to HTTP and HTML vs all the other things browsers do? How many of those lines of code are for CSS, JS, UI, Extensions, security, local storage, etc?
For HTTP, if we narrow things down to HTTP/1.1 GET without keepalive (connection-reuse) and for fixed content-length documents only, then I don't think it's vastly more complicated than Gemini. A client are not required to implement to implement more if they don't need it.
Browsers implement more (HTTP/[23], other request types, caching, etc) because it improves the user experience - but it wouldn't even be required for showing most web pages.
Maybe we can create a culture around creating content using as little web features as possible? I really like minimalism but I also really like interoperability and improving upon existing standards.
When I browse Gemini with Lagrange ( https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ ) if you avoid orange links, then you're guaranteed to have a quiet, text-only experience.
Once you understand that, it makes sense. It's the tech version of "my own web with blackjack and hookers and no Homers allowed."
Except not with blackjack and hookers, because blackjack would require complexity and interactivity and hookers would mean capitalism and advertising. But definitely no Homers.
I don't understand how anyone would give it the light of day.
Relative to software licenses, this would be the sort where the source code is there and you can read it, but that is all i.e. not Open Source nor Free Software.
It is not specified by a standards board or the like. It is an immutable protocol made by somebody's whim.
And it isn't very good. An example: It will never have a header with the size of the payload. The only way you will find out is by downloading the whole payload.
Gemini was first published roughly in 2019. At about three years old, what protocol has a standards board? It's too young.
It took C roughly 17 years to get a standards body.
It took Gopher three years to get the first RFC [1]. Was it a proprietary protocol? It was the same age as Gemini currently is.
Your point is moot due to Gemini's immutability.
It isn't a protocol carefully designed by a committee. It is just somebody's brain fart. It cannot be fixed and we are giving it too much attention.
Gemini is a little gem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 - Jan 2022 (122 comments)
Gemini is Solutionism - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 - Jan 2022 (218 comments)
Lagrange: A desktop GUI client for Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 - Nov 2021 (90 comments)
Gemini: The Misaligned Incentives - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 - Sept 2021 (84 comments)
What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 - Sept 2021 (208 comments)
Gemini's "uselessness" is its killer feature - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 - June 2021 (193 comments)
Gemini Space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 - April 2021 (27 comments)
Agate, a simple Gemini server written in Rust - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 - March 2021 (34 comments)
gemini:// space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 - Feb 2021 (170 comments)
The Tragedy of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 - Jan 2021 (28 comments)
Hacker News over Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 - Nov 2020 (21 comments)
A Gopher View of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 - Nov 2020 (9 comments)
A look at the Gemini protocol: a brutally simple alternative to the web - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 - July 2020 (347 comments)
Castor: A browser for the small internet (Gemini, Gopher, Finger) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 - May 2020 (75 comments)
Gemini – A new, collaboratively designed internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 - May 2020 (62 comments)
So does learning HTML if you only want Gemini level formatting. There is also nothing preventing you from just serving plain text files over HTTP either.
I used Gopher and Veronica back in their heyday. The Internet was a fantastically cool novelty back in the days of bag phones and exorbitantly expensive long-distance calling, and I totally get wanting to recapture that feeling. I think it's a lost cause, though. Large parts of the world suddenly becoming easily and mostly instantly connected was a sort of species-level watershed moment. Those of us that were around for those early years were lucky to get to see it, but I don't think it can ever really be recreated, except as some sort of LARP.